Heuer Chronographs: The Real Story of the
"Targa Florio" and the Oversized Reproductions
| Over the last
few months, there have been several oversized "Heuer" chronographs
offered for sale on the internet and at watch fairs. What styles of
oversize "Heuer" chronographs are currently being sold and which ones
are genuine Heuers? | To answer
the second question first, none of the oversized chronographs are
genuine Heuer timepieces. They are all reproductions / fakes. These
oversized chronographs have been produced in the last couple of years
(so they are not "vintage"), usually by craftsmen in Eastern Europe
and Germany (so they are not "Heuers"). In terms of the styles,
most of the oversize chronographs currently being offered are
one-button chronographs with two registers -- continuous seconds at
9:00 (nine o'clock) and a 30-minute recorder at 3:00 (three o'clock).
The button in the crown controls the stopwatch -- with start, stop
and reset to zero. There
are also some split-second chronographs being sold (illustrated
below). These are two-button models, with a pusher at 2:00 (two
o'clock) controlling the split-second function. As on the standard
chronograph, the button in the crown controls the basic
start-stop-reset functions.
|
So if they
were not made by Heuer, where are these fakes coming
from? | These oversize chronographs are being made
in at least three places -- in Prague (in the Czech Republic),in Ustka
(a city in Poland), and in the Black Forest region of Germany.
Case-making is something of a cottage industry, and in all
likelihood, pocket chronographs are being re-cased and converted into
oversized wrist chronographs in several additional locations. We
are most familiar with the operations being conducted in Poland and
the Czech Republic, and will focus on case-makers working in those
markets. To the extent we have reliable information, we will also
discuss the reproductions being made in Germany. |
Which ones are coming from Poland and
which ones come from the Czech Republic? How you tell them apart? And
what about these German ones? | Most of the
pieces sold on ebay over the last year have come from a case-maker in
Prague. The distinctive feature of these chronographs is the
coin-edge bezel, with the black stripe marker, and the screw-back,
which also has a coin-edge. It
takes some expensive equipment and highly skilled workers to produce
the coin-edge finishes and screw-backs on the Prague pieces. Working
in steel is far more difficult than working in gold or silver, and
these cases actually represent an extremely high level of case-making
skill. The ones coming from Poland (illustrated below) do not
have a rotating bezel and are snap-back models.
-
The German style is entirely
different, being based on the conversion of pocket chronographs into
wrist chronographs, without a new case being produced. Instead, bows
are added to the pocket watch case, so that a strap can be attached.
The movements are not re-cased; instead, the pocket watch case is
converted to accomodate a wrist-strap. [We have photographs of these
German reproductions, but do not publish them in this article because
we do not have permission from the owner of the chronograph.]
|
Who is making these reproduction
chronographs? |
The ones from Prague come from a
single craftsman, who works alone. (We have not spoken with him, so
we do not have the details of what he is doing.) The ones from
Poland come from a shop that employs three craftsmen. We have spoken
with the owner of this shop, and can provide some details about what
he is doing. We have less information about the German
operations, though we have received detailed descriptions of the
chronographs being produced there. We believe that there are
additional shops producing these oversized reproductions, and would
welcome any additional information that our readers might be able to
provide. |
How are these shops
producing these chronographs? | This is somewhat
complicated, but here are the basic steps: - the process
begins with a vintage pocket chronograph, which will be the "donor"
of the movement and sometimes the dial. These pocket chronographs are
relatively plentiful, and have been produced by numerous watch
companies. The following are photographs of pocket chronographs that
have been produced by Heuer, Leonidas, Hanhart, Omega and Longines -
- -
For
the Heuers currently on the market, a one-button model is the favored
"donor". If the case-maker will be making a split-second
chronograph, then, of course, the "donor" must be a split second
pocket chronograph. The Heuer Reference 11.204 is the "industry
standard". All else
being equal, the
Valjoux 76 and Valjoux 5
are the favored movements for the one-button chronographs; the
Valjoux 76R and Valjoux 9 are used for the split-second chronographs.
By using a genuine Heuer pocket chronograph, with the correct
movement, the manufacturer may save the step of adding bogus "Heuer"
marks to the movement (as described in step 3). The dial is less
important, because it will be refinished anyway.
- the dial is removed and refinished, with the numbers and other
markings being rotated 90 degrees (because the crown will be at 3:00
(three o'clock) on the wrist chronograph rather than at 12:00 (twelve
o'clock) on the pocket chronograph); the original dial is usually
used for this purpose, although we have heard that there are also
blanks being used
- if the "donor" pocket chronograph was
not a Heuer, the person producing the chronograph may add "Heuer"
marks to the movement; note that many pocket chronographs of the
period did not have any "brand" or "logo" marks on the movements, for
either the brand of watch or the brand of the movement
- the shop re-casing the pocket chronograph must produce a
high-grade stainless steel case to house the new wrist chronograph,
as described below
|
What does it
actually cost to produce one of these oversized
chronographs? |
The real issue is the price of the
new case that is produced to house the chronograph. You can find the
pocket chronographs, that will be the donors of the movements, in the
$200 to $400 range, with the genuine Heuers selling at the top of
this range. The dials can be refinished in the $50 to $100 range.
Producing the new case is time-consuming and the most expensive part
of the operation. - The cases from Prague are in the $1200
range, so that the finished chronograph is sold in the $1700 range
(including the movement).
- The cases from Poland are in
the $500 range, so that the finished chronograph sells for around
$1000.
- The split-second versions of the pocket
chronograph (Heuer References 11.204 and 11.404) might cost $600 or
$800, so the re-cased split-second chronographs will cost a few
hundred dollars more than the standard
chronographs.
|
Are the guys who are producing these chronographs
open about what they are doing? |
We have not spoken with the case-makers in the Czech Republic and Germany, so we cannot comment on how they are operating. We have heard that these
shops are offering their re-cased chronographs at watch fairs, in Munich, and generally disclosing that they are reproductions.
We have spoken with the case-maker working in Ustka, Poland, and he is entirely open about what he is doing. He indicates that he will never add the name "Heuer" to a case that he produces and that he will only use genuine Heuer dials (not blanks or other brands). Of course, these dials will be re-finished to rotate the numbers, as described above, but they are genuine Heuer dials. Whenever he sells a re-cased timepiece on ebay, it appears that he indicates clearly that the piece has been re-cased, and he has a very good feedback rating on ebay. He also advertises that individuals can send their old pocket watches to him to be re-cased. When he produces one of his timepieces, it is probably unfair to call it a "fake" or a "reproduction"; rather, it is a re-cased chrongraph with a re-finished dial.
It would appear that the problems do not really arise as much with the gentlemen who are producing these re-cased chronographs, as with their customers who are re-selling them as "vintage", "originals" or "New Old Stock"
timepieces. |
Lately, most of these oversized
chronographs are being offered and sold in the United States. How do
they get from Eastern Europe or Germany to the United
States? | This is where it gets interesting. The
central market for these oversized chronographs, other than the
internet, is Munich, where large watch fairs are held regularly.
Munich is centrally located within the region where the cases are
being produced, and these fairs are very well attended. At a typical
Munich watch fair, there will be several dealers offering these
oversized chronographs, with each seller having a selection of a few
pieces. Recently, it has become common knowledge at these fairs that
these chronographs are reproductions, and they are offered and sold
as such. In fact, they are thought of as something of a novelty item,
rather than as a serious, collectible chronograph. Recently, the
main buyers of these oversized chronographs have been dealers located
in the United States. While it may be well-known at these fairs, and
in the European dealer network generally, that these oversized
chronographs are "fakes", word is only beginning to spread in the
United States and certain other markets. So when these dealers return
to the United States, they are able to offer them as NOS pieces and
create some history to accompany the watches. In addition to
being offered at the European watch fairs, these chronographs may
also be sold by the case-maker directly to customers. These customers
may be individual collectors or dealers who then resell the
chronographs as vintage NOS pieces. |
So
what is this "history" that the United States dealers create for
these chronographs? | The typical
story is that these chronographs were produced by Heuer, in the
1950's, for a grand prix or rally team and "put away" for many years
by a keen collector. The story often includes references to the
chronograph having something to do with the Targa Florio race or
being produced for Juan-Manuel Fangio and his team. Those offering
the watches proceed with the story that a small "cache" of these
chronographs has been discovered recently and is being released into
the market slowly. Sometimes, they are said to come from the estate
of the collector who put them away, many years ago. Of course,
this history is a complete fabrication -- the chronographs were not
produced by Heuer in the 1950's; they were produced in Eastern Europe
or Germany just a few months ago. They are being released slowly
because there is a limit on how many the case-makers can produce and
there is a limit on how many the market can view and absorb, without
the fraud becoming too obvious. |
Do these dealers know the real history of these
chronographs? |
Absolutely. They are buying them
directly from the people who are making them, with full knowledge
that they are reproductions. I am told that their status as
"reproductions" or "fakes" is common knowledge in the circles where
these pieces are being offered (primarily the Munich watch fairs).
The dealers are being told exactly what they are, and then making up
the "history" and representing them to be vintage, New Old Stock
pieces in order to realize higher prices when they resell them. (When
they were first introduced into the US market, typical selling prices
are around $3000 for the standard (one-button) chronographs and over
$4500 for the split-second (two-button) versions.) I have
presented the "facts" to two of the dealers located here in the US,
and they continue with their stories about race teams, special
editions, collectors in Germany, caches being found, estates, etc.
The story changes a little from time to time, as they forget some of
what they have told me, but they continue offering them as NOS /
vintage / original timepieces. |
What are the names of the dealers that are selling these
fakes? | We do not see any real purpose in naming
the dealers who are selling these fake chronographs. In addition,
there are some reputable dealers selling these chronographs that seem
to have absolutely no idea what they are selling. Some of them have
accepted the pieces on consignment. Rather than guessing which
dealers are in on the scam and which are innocent bystanders, all we
need to know is that if you are reading this page, then you will know
at least as much as any of the dealers and can avoid buying one of
these fakes (unless you actually want to own one).
|
Where are these dealers located? | Most of the
oversized chronographs have been offered by dealers based in Southern
California. They are being offered on ebay, through internet watch
dealers and even in some reputable stores. As word is getting out
among the dealers, that these are "fakes", ebay and the internet
become the only channels of distribution. Prices appear to have
declined in recent months and many of these fakes remain
unsold. |
So the Southern California connection
explains the stories about these chronographs being worn by movie
stars and celebrities? |
Correct. We can see from the photographs shown below that Orlando Jones wore one during the filming of Biker BoyZ. We have also heard from a reliable source that Arnold Schwarznegger owned one. Our Hollywood correspondent tells us that he once made the mistake of jumping into a swimming pool while wearing the chronograph. These are not waterproof, but the chronograph was successfully dried out and repaired.
-
|
OK -- enough about the movie stars on
motorcycles. Is it true that Juan-Manuel Fangio wore these oversize
Heuer chronographs when he drove in the Targa Florio road races, in
the early 1950's? |
Juan-Manuel Fangio was one of the
greatest racecar drivers of all time, and had the distinction of
being the first five-time Formula One champion. We know that he was
fond of chronographs, and we see photographs of him wearing
chronographs in the pits, on the racetrack and even while having a
doctor fit him with a plaster cast.
Heuer had a relationship with Fangio, and it seems that Heuer
chronographs were among his favorites. TAG-Heuer indicates that
Fangio wore a Heuer chronograph when he participated in the Targa
Florio road race, in the early 1950's, and the company drew on this
association in designing and marketing its Targa Florio chronograph
(introduced in 1996, as part of its Classic series). While there
is every reason to believe that Fangio wore a Heuer, we have not been
able to find any evidence that he wore a chronograph resembling the
oversized chronographs being produced today. We have inspected dozens
of photographs of Juan-Manuel Fangio, looking for the "Targa Florio"
oversized chronograph. YES -- he wore a variety of chronographs,
even during races and practices, and he seems to have liked the large
ones. NO -- none of them resemble the fakes that are being offered
and sold as "the original Targa Florio" chronograph. In simplest
terms, this is another bit of "history" being created by dealers
attempting to sell modern-day fakes. |
These chronographs are sometimes described as vintage "Targa Florio" chronographs. Did Heuer ever produce a "Targa Florio" chronograph? What about the "Targa Florio" chronographs being make by TAG-Heuer today? |
The first Heuer chronograph to be named the "Targa Florio" was introduced in 1996, as part of TAG-Heuer's Classic series of re-issues; however, the real story of this Targa Florio chronograph begins in 1935, when Heuer introduced its "Flieger" chronograph. The following image is from a 1935 magazine, where the chronograph is described as a "novelty" item.
Designed for pilots, this chronograph featured a rotating, coin-edge bezel, with a triangular marker; an oversized crown that made it easier to wind and set the watch; and highly legible registers. The following is a photograph of the chronograph, provided to OnTheDash by TAG-Heuer, from its archives.
By 1942, the one-button chronograph had been modified to become a two-button chronograph, and the chronograph was assigned Reference No. 348. Note that the chronograph retained its signature features: the rotating coin-edge bezel; the large crown; and the legibility that defines a pilot's chronograph.
The two chronographs shown above, the one-button model introduced in 1935 and the two-button model appearing in the 1942 catalog, appear significant in two respects:
- this chronograph, or some
variation of it, was likely the chronograph worn by Juan-Manuel
Fangio in the Targa Florio races of the early 1950's; the same
durability and legibility that would have served the pilot so well in
an airplane would certainly have served Fangio well, at the controls
of an automobile, racing through the streets of Sicily
- this chronograph clearly served as the model that inspired
TAG-Heuer's re-issuance of the Targa Florio in 1996.
So it was that when TAG-Heuer relaunched the "Targa Florio" chronograph in 2001, as part of its Classic series, the company drew on its association with Juan-Manuel Fangio and his choice of a Heuer as the chronograph that he would wear during the running of the Targa Florio. These "Targa Florios" are the only chronographs ever produced
by Heuer under that name. (Characteristic of all chronographs produced during the 1930's and 1940's, the chronographs shown above did not have model names on the dials, only the name "Heuer".)
|
So that explains the "real" Heuers -- the Flieger chronographs of the
1940's and the Targa Florios of the 1990's. How did we get from those
real ones to the modern-day reproductions? |
It
appears that the individuals producing the fakes took advantage of
TAG-Heuer's re-issue of the Targa Florios in several respects. Here
is the most likely scenario. When TAG-Heuer reintroduced the
Targa Florio in 2001, its marketing materials used numerous vintage
photos of Fangio, Formula One cars, etc. These materials reminded
modern-day enthusiats of Heuer's connection with the glory days of
racing and its association with the greatest racer of all --
Juan-Manuel Fangio. However, Heuer did not use photographs of the
chronographs, produced in the 1940's, that were the basis for the
design of the modern Targa Florio. (In fact, TAG-Heuer did not
publicly identify the actual chrongraph that was the historic
predecessor of the Targa Florio.) So along came the people
producing the "fakes", and decided that they will hijack both the
history of these chronographs, as well as their design. Thus, the
reproductions take their design cues from the new Targa Florio -- the
circular steel case, with coin-edge rotating bezel; black dial with
paint round figures; fluted crown; etc. This all appears to be a
twisted case of "reverse engineering" -- with a piece produced in
2002, in Eastern Europe or Germany, posing as the original which is
said to have inspired the re-issue in 1996. In this sense, it appears
that the re-issue inspired the forgery of the "original". This
spy-versus-spy stuff does get confusing!!
In terms of their appearance, how would you compare the real ones (from the 1940's) with the
fake ones (from the 2000's)? |
Comparing the real Heuers with the fakes, the following differences are most
obvious:
- the size: at 48mm across the dial and 60mm
lug-to-lug, the fakes are much larger than the genuine Heuers; in
fact, the genuine Heuers were not oversized chronographs at all, but
were less than 40mm across the dial
- the configuration: the genuine Heuers are one-button or two-button
chronographs, with the crown used only to set and wind the watch;
most of the fakes use a pusher in the crown, the result of their
movements coming from pocket chronographs that used this
pusher-in-crown configuration
- the construction: the cases used for the fakes are solid stainless steel; the genuine
Heuers were likely chromium-plated cases, as stainless steel was a
relatively new material in the 1940's and was very expensive to
produce
In summary, the modern-day reproductions look very different from the genuine Heuers. While, on some level, the modern-day pieces may have been inspired by the vintage Heuers, in reality their design was influenced by two more significant factors: (1) "big" is "in" right now, and the folks who designed the fakes must have realized that these oversized chronographs would sell well; and (2) the people producing the fakes needed to use movements that are plentiful; the adundance of large movements from vintage pocket chronographs dictated that the fakes would be large . . . very large.
|
So has Heuer ever actually produced
oversized chronographs or anything bearing any real resemblance to
these modern-day reproductions? | We do not
believe that Heuer has produced anything near the size of the fakes
that are flooding the market today. These big boys are coming in at
48 mm, across the dial, and 60 mm, from lug-to-lug. This is fairly
typical of today's oversized chronographs (for example, the Hanharts,
Glycines, Tutimas, etc.), but there is nothing approaching this size
in the old Heuer catalogs (or in the memory of the old Heuer
watchmakers). Sure, the earliest wrist chronographs (of the
1910's and 1920's) were approximately this size, but these were
really pocket watches with lugs and a strap attached. It does not
appear that Heuer produced anything like these oversized chronographs
during the relevant periods (1940's through 1960's). In fact,
there were very few watch companies making oversized chronographs
during the 1940's and 1950's. Several companies produced oversized
pilots' watches during the 1930's and 1940's (Hanhart, Junghans,
Glasshutte and Tutima come to mind), but relatively few produced them
in the 1950's (with Minerva and Longines being two of the leaders in
this area). In simplest terms, there are no genuine oversized Heuer
chronographs -- whether from the 1940's, 1950's or 1960's; any
oversized chronograph bearing the "Heuer" name is a fake. The
perspective on the split-second chronographs is even simpler: Heuer
never produced a split-second wrist chronograph, large or small. So
if it a split-second wrist chronograph marked "Heuer", it is a fake.
No need for any detailed forensic work on this one!
|
How many of these reproductions / fakes
have been sold? | I can count
at least six or eight of these "Heuer" chronographs that have been
sold and there are probably at least 10 or 12 more that are currently
on the market (or waiting in the wings). I believe that there are
also some that have been sold privately, away from ebay or the
internet. Because of ebay "shills" and sales outside ebay, it is
difficult to determine exactly how many of those listed on ebay have
actually been sold. Also, some of these chronographs may be on
consignment with more than one dealer, so it is difficult to be
certain about how many different pieces are being offered. It is
interesting that the production and sale of fake oversized "Heuers"
comes as part of a recent trend that has seen several hundred
reproductions of oversized chronographs in the market. The trend
probably started three or four years ago, with the Minervas, Omegas
and Longines, and Heuer was added to the collection of fakes with the
past two or three years. |
So if there are less than 20 of these fakes, with only about half of them sold, what's the big deal?
|
Putting aside the purely legal issues (which are very complicated and best left to the lawyers in the
group) and the ethical issues (which may be best addressed by the ethicists in the group), from the perspective of the collector, it is all about honesty and deception. Let's walk through a couple of examples.
If a collector owns a Reference 701 pocket chronograph, or a Reference 11204 split-second pocket chronograph, and decides to have it put into a newly-manufactured wrist chronograph case with a refinished dial, most people would say that this is the collector's own business. Clearly, TAG-Heuer could take issue with the "Heuer" name being used on a re-done (rotated) dial, but to the extent that our collector keeps the re-cased chronograph for his own use and pleasure, it is difficult to see how anyone is harmed. This example is a summary of what seems to be occuring in Ustka, Poland -- genuine Heuers, being re-cased with re-finished dials, all fully known and agreed to by the buyer.
At the other end of the spectrum, let's consider the dealer who obtains a Leonidas pocket chronograph, from the 1940's, that has an unmarked movement. The dealer sends it to a craftsman in Eastern Europe, who produces a new case and has the dial rotated / refinished. For discussion purposes, let's assume that, on the instructions of the dealer, the craftsman marks the case "Ed. Heuer & Co." and also adds a few "Heuer" and "Valjoux" marks to the previously unmarked movement. Of course, as instructed, he also has the dial changed from "Leonidas" to "Heuer". Our friendly dealer then lists it for $3000, and describes it as New Old Stock, vintage, original, etc. A novice collector makes the purchase, after telling the dealer that he only wants to buy the chronograph if it is a
genuine, vintage Heuer and receiving assurances to this affect from the dealer. Would anyone not agree that this is a "big deal". |
So how would you rate the quality of these timepieces? |
That is one of the ironies of this whole messy situation. Some of the modern-day reproductions are fantastic pieces. If the dealers would sell them for what they are (and get rid of the illegal "Heuer" logos and marks), then maybe everyone would be happy. The version being produced in Prague is the only one that I have seen "in the metal", so I can only comment on that one. The design of the case, dial and hands was fantastic and the build quality of the case was absolutely superb . . . first rate by anyone's standards. The movement was
pristine, and it kept time incredibly well -- within one minute per month. It had a genuine Valjoux 76 movement and was one of the best timekeepers of any Heuer that I have checked. In some respects, it is the superb quality of the construction that allows the dealers to pass them off as genuine pieces. As one of the dealers wrote to me,
they are absolutely "Heuer quality".
I have not inspected any of those made in Poland or Germany, but they certainly look nice in the
photographs. |
So what do you think these reproductions are worth? |
One of the usual approaches to defining "market value" begins with the phrase "what a willing buyer would
pay, assuming that he is fully informed." For a beautiful looking, well-built, hand-made chronograph, with a genuine Valjoux movement, I believe that there are plenty of people who would pay more than $2000 for one of the Prague pieces, knowing exactly what they are (and what they are not). While some buyers might like the Heuer logo, there are others who find forgery offensive, and would pay even more if the dial were left blank. This kind of price would represent a fair mark-up above the price being charged by the case-makers assembling these pieces. Supporting this approach, I have heard of serious Heuer collectors being told that they are fakes, and still wanting to buy one around the $2500 price level. As one of them asked me, "What other chronos at this price level look this good and are built this well?" Similarly, a leading auction house recently sold an oversized split-second chronograph, marked "Heuer", for over $5000. The purchaser was advised that it was likely a reproduction; he still
inspected the piece and decided that it was a "buy" at that price.
So if the question is "What are they worth?", then the answer must be "Whatever a buyer is willing to pay". The key is that the buyer has a right to know what he is buying, rather than being sold fictitious "history" and "originality". |
What first tipped you off that these are
fakes? | The first indication that something was
wrong came when a Southern California dealer offered me a
split-second, two-button version. Of course, it came with the usual
story of being from the early 1950's and having been "put away" by a
collector many years ago, etc. The case was marked "Ed. Heuer" and
the chronograph had the same case and dial as the other oversized
chronographs then being offered (the Prague version). The problem
was that the movement in this chronograph was marked "Heuer-Leonidas". The Heuer / Leonidas merger only occurred in 1964,
so this chronograph must have been "put together" some time after
that date. Also, the movement was a Valjoux 9, which Heuer only began
using in the 1960's. It hardly required a detective to conclude that
this was not a vintage piece from the 1950's. |
What were the other clues that these
were fakes? | Most of the evidence was outlined in our "Great Debate" table, which we published in May 2003 -- the oversized chronographs did not appear in any old
Heuer catalogs, long-time Heuer watchmakers had never seen or heard of them, the paint on the dials looked too fresh, and some of the markings on the movements were strange looking. (For example, I examined one chronograph -- which turns out to have been made in Prague -- with a "Swiss Made" mark on the movement.
I have seen hundreds of Heuer movements, but I had never seen one
marked "Swiss Made". In addition, this mark was in a strange place on
the movement and the "quality" of this particular marking looked
weak.) Once you conclude that one piece is a "fake", then you
start looking at the others more critically. Pretty soon, you start
to see more problems and suddenly you realize that they are all
fakes. It's not as though 10 could have been produced by Heuer 50
years ago and 10 identical pieces were produced a few months ago, in
Eastern Europe or Germany. In fact, it didn't take long to realize
that all 20 must be the reproductions. | What
makes you so certain now about these being "fakes"? Previously, you
had some questions and referred to this as being a "debate" or
"controversy". | It all
became clear during the past couple of weeks, based on three
conversations with experts. -
First, I spoke at length with
a case-maker who operates a workshop in Poland. He has been totally
up-front about his re-casing old pocket chronographs, and when he
sells these re-cased pieces for his own account, he clearly describes
them as such. He also told me that he is "100% certain" that the
coin-edge pieces are not genuine and are being produced
currently. - The second step was a detailed conversation
with an individual who knows the gentleman producing the pieces in
Prague. Over the last couple of years, this individual has seen the
Prague case-maker offering his pieces at several shows in Munich. He
has inspected several of these reproductions and admires the
workmanship of the pieces. He told me that there is no such thing as
a vintage oversized Heuer chronograph (or even a modern Heuer
oversized chronograph). It's really very simple -- Heuer has never
produced an oversized chronograph!
- The final step, which
should have probably been the first step, was a conversation with a
representative of TAG-Heuer, who is working at the company's
headquarters in Switzerland. During this conversation, he examined
the images included in this article and confirmed that Heuer had not
produced any of the oversized pieces.
|
Why are you so interested in these
chronographs? |
Since we launched
OnTheDash.com, in February 2003, the oversized chronograph that we
have shown has generated many questions. (It is ironic that we have
received more inquiries asking about the history and availability of
this chronograph than any other timepiece shown on the website, and
the others are all genuine. These reproductions are great looking
chronographs!!) Similarly, these oversize chronographs have been the
subject of many questions on our Discussion Forum. People
considering spending $2500 to $5000 for one of these chronographs
should have the real story, and not be paying for the forged names
and marks (added by the case-makers) and the forged "history" (being
created by dealers trying to move their inventory).
|
One final question -- Just what is the
difference between a "reproduction" and a "fake"? You seem to use the
terms interchangeably. | Though
there is no real legal distinction, I tend to think that the
well-intentioned case-maker or dealer, who makes full disclosure to
the purchaser, is offering a "reproduction"; when there is some
intent to deceive the purchaser, the very same timepiece becomes a
"fake".
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An Update -- What We Have Learned
since Publishing these Questions and
Answers
September 18, 2003
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What have been the most interesting
reactions to the publication of the
article about these oversized fake
chronographs?
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Since
publishing this article, on July 31, 2003,
we have had numerous responses, from some
unlikely sources. Specifically, we have
heard from TAG-Heuer, Jack Heuer, one of
the case-makers and three owners of these
chronographs.
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It's interesting that you heard from Jack Heuer. What did he think of the article?
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Jack Heuer read the article word-for-word, and characterized it as being entirely correct. In an e-mail, sent to me on August 15th, Mr. Heuer stated: "Ed. Heuer & Co. and later on Heuer-Leonidas never made any giant wrist chronographs between 1930 until today. . . . All the models you decribe in your article are remakes and therefore fakes!" To the extent that there was ever a debate about these oversized chronographs, those two sentences serve as the announcement that the debate is officially over.
Mr. Heuer also provided some interesting information about why these fakes mught be coming from the Czech Republic. He indicated that in the 1960's, heuer used to regularly supply the Czech governemnt in Prague with stopwatches and pocket chronographs (model Ref. 1101 without split). This might expalin the abundant supply of some nice movements in the Czech republic.
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So what did the case-makers have to say about the article?
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It is interesting that we have not received any "denials" from the folks actually producing these timepieces. We exchanged e-mails with the case-maker working in Ustka, Poland, and he was satisfied with the article. He only wanted us to clarify that he uses only genuine Heuer dials (not blanks or other brands) and that he never adds "Heuer" markings to a case or movement. We have heard, indirectly, from the case-maker working in Prague. He also wanted to emphasize that he is using genuine Heuer dials and movements. As such, would probably say that he is merely re-casing a chronograph that has a re-finished dial. [I have not heard him address the issue of why he puts the bogus marks inside the cases.]
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What about the folks who had purchased the fakes? What did they have to say about this whole mess? |
As of September 30, 2003, I have heard from four owners of these chronographs, and their experiences and reactions cover the spectrum. Here is the quick summary:
- First to contact me (08/01/03) was a gentleman in California who had purchhased an oversized chronograph that is distinctive in two respects: it has a see-through back and is powered by a Valjoux 61 movement.
He purchased this chronograph with full disclosure that the movement had been recased, and at a fairly reasonable price. He enjoys wearing the watch, receives lots of compliments on it, and his only real complaint is that the seller had told him that the movement was a Valjoux 76 (as in a Super Autavia). While the Valjoux 76 has the pedigree of being used in the Super Autavia, the Valjoux 61 is a good quality movement ans was used by Heuer in several different pocket chronographs.
- Next, I heard from a Heuer collector who had purchased a chronograph from our case-maker in Ustka, Poland. As best as I can determine, his chronograph is not a fake or a reproduction, but a genuine "Transitional Chronograph".
The dial is beautiful -- porcelain in perfect condition -- and a genuine Heuer. The case and the movement are "vintage"; there is no reason to think that they are not original, except that someone has converted the back to a plastic "display" back. Bottom line: this owner is happy with his purchase and pleased to have confirmed the authenticity of the piece. It was also interesting for us to "borrow" the watch to photograph, and this enabled us to create our section of Transitional Chronographs.
- Next (08/23/03), I received an e-mail from another collector in California, who had bought one of the usual Prague pieces from one of the usual sellers.
So, of course, this chronograph was sold to him with the usual "history" -- small run of high-quality chronographs, specially produced by Heuer in the early 1950's for a racing team; put away for the last 50 years; etc.; etc. He has gone back to his seller, but the seller says that the information on OnTheDash is "all wrong" and that "those guys don't know what they are talking about". An amazing statement, considering that "those guys" now include Jack Heuer and the case-makers actually making these watches!!
- Next (09/23/02), I received an e-mail from an East Coast collector who purchased his oversized chronograph approximately one year ago. This is an unusual one -- split-second; fancy lugs -- but made in Poland.
The owner knew what he was buying, and is happy with the workmanship of the case and the scarcity of the split-second movement.
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Have you heard anything from the dealers? What about the "reputable retailers" that you refer to, who have taken the fakes on consignment? |
NO -- I haven't heard anything from any of the dealers. I understand that one of them has indicated that he will produce "documentation" to prove the authenticity of the pieces. This should be an interesting exercise -- as a friend remarked, "If you are producing fake watches, you might as well produce some fake documents to help sell them." These documents should prove to be interesting (and entertaining).
I have spoken with a couple of retailers, who had taken the fakes on consignment. I understand that they have returned the pieces to their owners -- the dealers who imported them originally.
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What have been the most interesting questions that you have received since publishing the article? |
Several people have asked questions or made suggestions about what we should call these "recently-produced" timepieces. The general consensus is that "reproduction" is too kind a term, since there was actually no original that is being reproduced, and that we should be "calling a fake a fake". The case-makers take the opposite view, saying that they are only re-casing genuine movements and re-finishing genuine Heuer dials. [As we mentioned above, no one is admitting to adding markings to the cases, but somehow the "Ed. Heuer" mark is appearing in the fresh stainless steel.]
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2003.07.23 -- 21.10.45 -- CM3 2003.08.03
-- 00.20.45 -- JMS 2003.09.09 -- 00.41.57
CM3
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